How Michael Gardiner Built a $2M Agency While Traveling the World

Gabriel Čavlović (00:00)

Welcome everybody to the first ever episode of the Founders Gambit. Today we have my friend Michael who grew his B2B lead gen agency to 2 million in revenue while traveling the world. Michael, welcome to channel.

Michael Gardiner (00:13)

Yeah, Gabriel, thanks for having me here. Excited to have this conversation.

Gabriel Čavlović (00:16)

Awesome man. For anybody listening, I met Michael through Upwork and I was looking for someone to help me with my album and of course he was amazing so we kind of stayed in touch. Michael, think the best way to start is if you tell us a bit about yourself, who you are and what do you actually do.

Michael Gardiner (00:35)

Sure. My name is Michael Gardner. I've been building agencies online since 2014. Started with an influencer marketing agency back before I was really a thing. I was able to grow about outbound messaging, outbound prospecting, and eventually sold it. Since then, started a couple other B2B service companies. Some have done well, some haven't. Some have sold, others haven't. And currently, I run DFI meetings. We are a B2B Legion agency. We help people with cold email, up work, and also direct mail. So I run that. And while I run that, I travel around

Gabriel Čavlović (00:54)

Yeah.

Michael Gardiner (01:05)

for about half a year, another half, I live in northern Thailand.

Gabriel Čavlović (01:09)

I love this. Yeah, we'll touch on that more later, but before we dive deeper into some of the practical stuff and more about your life, I wanted to ask, why did you start your own business? You told me that you did B2B lead generation as an employee for someone else. So what made you go on your own?

Michael Gardiner (01:27)

Yeah, I had done it a little bit for some previous jobs. my career timeline was a bit weird because I first started an influencer marketing agency by accident. When I was like 14 in high school, I was growing accounts on Instagram, themed accounts like travel, watches, cars, whatever I felt was cool. it was quite easy to get a lot of followers back then. And at peak, I had about a million between my pages. And I was selling promotions to companies. And eventually, that led to having influencer marketing agency. But at the time, I didn't particularly

Gabriel Čavlović (01:51)

me

Michael Gardiner (01:57)

know what that was. I just kind of fell into it when I was young. you know also because of the clients I was working with, I got exposure to e-commerce, to affiliate marketing, to info, to agencies, to software. All those things were brand new to me at the age I started.

I did initial outreach from that company to get clients and then along the way I did work a couple jobs where that outreach skill was also nice to see how it would work in like a larger organization. But the main thing I did to figure out outreach was learn how to get my own clients for my own companies.

Gabriel Čavlović (02:31)

I love that. That's cool. I know you're big on social proof and can you maybe touch a bit on that? Why do you think it's so important, especially now in this day and age and also for cold outreach, like I would assume it's really big, big part.

Michael Gardiner (02:49)

Yeah, definitely. So I am certainly not like a veteran entrepreneur. I've been in the game for a bit over a decade, but I don't think it makes me a veteran by any means. But even looking back when I first got into things, 2014, 15, it was genuinely harder to find information. There was a deficit in information on doing online business. I was not in business, and let's say the early 2000s, but I know it's even more so then. Today, you are bombarded with content. You're bombarded with podcasts, with YouTube videos.

with short form, with books, with conferences, everything. And there's so many people and so much noise, but trust is at an all time low. So I think regardless of what marketing are doing, whether it's organic, whether it's paid media, whether it's outreach, trust is ultimately one of most important things. So I'm huge on.

intentionally gathering that trust, whether it's in a form of third party reviews like Google Trust, Pilot Clutch, testimonials, case studies, maybe certifications. It's made a massive impact on my business being intentional about this collection. And then I can also say from client campaigns, we'll have two very similar companies. One has been intentional about a personal brand and social proof. The other one hasn't. The one that has is going to outperform the other one significantly.

Gabriel Čavlović (04:06)

Yeah, that makes sense. Like, did you ever find the one that kind of clicks for you the most? Would it be like video testimonials or your personal videos? I know you have YouTube channel, so...

Michael Gardiner (04:16)

For non-testimonial style YouTube for sure. YouTube has been a huge revenue generator and drives a lot of trust. Outside of that I would say probably our video testimonials. have some, not just a lot of video testimonials, but we have video testimonials from some people that are pretty well known in our industry which helps.

Gabriel Čavlović (04:39)

And for someone who is just like starting out their business and they don't have these clients behind them. They don't have big logos yet, right? They've never worked for someone. How can they approach this? How can they maybe find their first client, their first social proof and go about that?

Michael Gardiner (04:56)

think the easiest way, this won't apply to everybody, it will apply to a lot, is to target people that have some type of personal connection to you. most buying processes are entirely logical.

Is there a reason to hire this person? And when you're first starting out, there isn't normally. But you can find ways to connect with somebody. Maybe you target a family member that has a business, or a family friend that has a business, or maybe you target somebody that was alumni at the university you went to and you mentioned that you're currently a student, or you're recently a student, and try to use that connection point. Or even just targeting somebody in your hometown, and the reason they would work with you is because you're from the same place. That is a connection in which people do care.

about. Or extending that further, maybe you're passionate, I'll take my interest skateboarding, I love skateboarding. You know, if I was a target skateboard brand, they'd probably listen to me or be more likely to give me a first chance just because of that common ground. So when you don't have logical reasons to work for you, you can leverage personal connection.

Gabriel Čavlović (05:55)

I love that. Yeah. I kind of started similar. Like I found just people who I generally knew, like my uncle owned a small business. So I built a website for him and just kind of those connections that we don't even know we have. We can do it. I built like 10 websites for free just to get these testimonials and then maybe try and seek some other clients. Love that. I would like to touch up on something really interesting that you've been doing.

And like you're one of the only people I know that actually does this profitably. And that would be direct direct mail. Why do you think it works so well for you? Why did you even start it? And why now in 2025?

Michael Gardiner (06:38)

Sure, so I've always been a little bit unconventional in my marketing that even when I got into cold email was a bit less mainstream.

Me doing drug mail by no means means cold email doesn't work, other channels don't work. I'm pretty channel agnostic, meaning I think that mostly every channel can work, not for every business, but every channel does work for somebody. However, with cold email, lot of things are changing with AI. And while we do use AI in my company, it's been able to increase our margins and our productivity significantly. I am not a tech person.

Do I know how use a computer? Yes. Can I do basic stuff in Zapier or Make or N8N or Clay, of course. But I don't enjoy it. It's not my strong suit, right? I'm better off doing more creative work. And with the way coldemodal is going, initially I was thinking, okay, well, we could be like the best of coldemodal AI. But that seemed to get...

busy very fast and the creative decision I took was well what could I do in outreach that no one else does and would give me a significant advantage. And throughout my decade in business I have done Dreadmail on occasion. I'm just kind of whenever like hey I need a client let's do some Dreadmail and it's always worked pretty well for me and I've always done like very creative Dreadmail. Dreadmail is not technical it is purely effort and creativity based and a huge advantage I have is

U.S. citizenship and being able to be in the U.S. right? So I love it because it takes money to start. You need legitimate supplies. You need legitimate U.S. salary employees. You need the ability to be in the U.S. So there's a bigger barrier to entry. Our people can't do it. And then even if they could, it's a pain. It's especially a pain if you're just doing it for one time, know, with all the supplies you need. So we started doing it for some clients and the conversion rates have been really good. You know, talking about how many pieces of mail

Gabriel Čavlović (08:22)

Yeah.

Michael Gardiner (08:32)

to get somebody on a meeting. Best campaigns are like one out of four and our worst campaign ever is one out of 50, meaning 50 people reach out to you for a meeting. is it the cheapest acquisition channel? No, it's not. Mail does have a cost to it. But it's really effective and if you can afford to spend a few hundred dollars on a good meeting, it's a fantastic channel with virtually no competition. And even if it does become popular again, because it's kind of been popular, been outdated, I don't think the competition will be much

because A, just the logistics of sending from the US, and then B, it's a pain in the ass. It's a lot of manual work.

Gabriel Čavlović (09:10)

Yeah, that sounds amazing. I believe there is not so much competition, but not only because it's outdated per se, but more so it's hard, it's challenging, right? There are things you need to overcome to do that. Are there any tips? How would you go about and explain to hey, this is how you use direct mail. Are you sending something special? What are you doing there? How are you reaching out? Any practical tips you might have there?

Michael Gardiner (09:39)

Yeah, so I do a gift with every piece of Drep mail. So it's normally a gift in a package with a note, sometimes handwritten, sometimes printed. I tried letters. I found letters get thrown away. Packages do not. Now, when it comes to the gift, it's one of two things. It's either a pun. Example of a pun might be sending somebody a brick, like a literal brick. And the pun is like, let's build this together brick by brick. Or it's personalized to them. So many people.

Gabriel Čavlović (09:50)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Gardiner (10:05)

don't make a mistake, but they do the same thing, which is, hey, here's a t-shirt of my company logo, which you definitely don't care about, and it sits in your closet, and eventually it turns into a cleaning rag or something, right? That's what some people do. We do all of our personalization to the prospect. So maybe if you're in a certain niche, we'll figure out an item that's either fun for them or relevant to them, and we'll put their company name on that item. Now that's higher cost, it's higher effort, you don't really get the same economy to scale because it's just one item. People get to be in the mail and it their company name on

That is not a common occurrence. It's pretty cool.

Gabriel Čavlović (10:38)

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, you're right. Like it is a lot more effort and probably more costly, but that's why you close one in four, right? So that's amazing. Yeah. What would you say changed the most in B2B Legion since you started? Like how did that...

Michael Gardiner (10:46)

Yeah.

Michael Gardiner (10:55)

Noise, same thing of content, just more people doing it. That is the biggest change when I started. It's the same thing with YouTube, with just sheer volume of businesses, like entrepreneurship is cool now, the barrier is even lower than ever of information being accessible, with technology being inexpensive. There's just so many people doing it. So yeah, just noise. It's just everything's noisy. Ads are noisy, outreach is noisy, content's noisy.

Gabriel Čavlović (11:23)

I love that and that ties back to again, your social proof and your like, just thinking of different ways or creative ways like direct mail to try and outrun your competition, which is nice. Cool. I have to ask you like, what would be the biggest bet you ever made in your business and did it play out? Like how does that go?

Michael Gardiner (11:47)

Yeah, so I've definitely made bets in my business, but I would say I am more of a moderate risk taker. So one thing that I'm really glad I figured out when I was young is like, what do I want in life? And for me, I don't really care about having.

Gabriel Čavlović (11:54)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Gardiner (12:02)

tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars. Not to say I won't eventually, maybe I will, but I don't really care too much. My main thing is location freedom, time freedom, the ability to afford anything within reason. I don't mean I expect to be able to buy a $10 million home in cash, but I have the car I want, I have the watches I want, I travel, I have investment properties, right? I'm able to buy things within reason. So for me, it never made sense to take...

massive, massive risks. I've always been kind of a moderate risk taker. So I mean, I have done some things like I've dropped out of school or I've invested a lot in like mentorship or in figuring out ads, whatever it may be, but I've never done like a all or nothing, know, lose it if you mess up type investment. And that may be like a less sexy story, but given that

Gabriel Čavlović (12:47)

you

Michael Gardiner (12:57)

I use business as a way to live my life, not my life as a way to run my business. It's worked out well for me.

Gabriel Čavlović (13:04)

I love that. You mentioned you left out of the school and you invested a lot of these masterminds or some kind of not so traditional education. Can you maybe touch on that? What's the difference? Where do you find the most value and why did you leave the school?

Michael Gardiner (13:18)

So it's kind of funny because I don't have like one of these cool dropout stories words like I was bad in school I dropped out like no I was pretty good in school I got accepted into college before I finished high school So I went to college at like 16 and I got like a full scholarship and didn't pay anything I don't have like I don't have like any of these like was dumb in school and then I started a business I don't have that story. don't have like a sad story right had like a loving middle-class family that mostly supported me and then I get to school for free and I got tired of school and dropped out

Gabriel Čavlović (13:24)

you

Gabriel Čavlović (13:33)

amazing.

Gabriel Čavlović (13:42)

You

Michael Gardiner (13:48)

It's not like the rags the riches story. You know, during school I was running my business and I was making decent money. So it wasn't like a shocking decision to drop out. yeah, just didn't really, I got kind of tired of school and balancing it for work.

Gabriel Čavlović (13:49)

You

Gabriel Čavlović (13:57)

Okay.

Michael Gardiner (14:05)

Funny enough, only have like two classes left to graduate. I just didn't want to do them. So yeah, I think everybody tries to like make their story more dramatic or cooler than it is, but it's like, I have a pretty stable upbringing with two parents that love each other and support me and no insane hardship to be honest. Not that I didn't have difficult moments, but I think it's okay to not have a dramatic story.

Gabriel Čavlović (14:33)

Yeah, I 100 % agree with that. yeah, people may even like with exponentiate whatever way they went through just to get this cool effect, which yeah, crumbles. And this, like you mentioned, you invested a lot in this like masterminds and stuff like that. How did that help you?

Michael Gardiner (14:44)

Yeah.

Michael Gardiner (14:55)

Yeah, definitely. So I've always invested in one of two things. Either A, if I want like specific technical knowledge, just paying consultants, normally hourly or hourly packages. Or B, if I want to be around people that are at a similar place as myself in community, in masterminds, in live events, in groups. You know, and I think that some of them I went in were fantastic.

Others were okay. I've never been in any of that. have bad, some have been okay. But even ones that were okay, it's like, if it's a $5,000 mastermind, everybody in it paid $5,000 to join. That is vetting of people, but the people in that are going to be higher quality than your average person. I've always been good at networking and meeting people, so when I do join masterminds or programs, I'm...

quite proactive about meeting everybody in them. as a result, that's made me money directly by signing clients and indirectly just from knowing people that have referred me to people or whatever it may be.

Gabriel Čavlović (15:57)

Yeah, that sounds amazing. And what do you think about conferences? Is that like worth the shot going there, meeting people, like being there eye to eye? Today we are all online like we are right now and it's like we are losing that personal touch.

Michael Gardiner (16:12)

Yeah, I love conferences. I've been to quite a few, I've spoken at a few, and I find that it's like one of the most efficient ways to get clients, other than the travel time, depending where you're going. like I have, I spoke on a conference two years ago. We closed like $60,000 in business from being on stage for 10 minutes. I've also spoken at some conferences that...

didn't result in making that much money, but maybe indirectly did. it's even kind of funny, because I live in Chiang Mai, Thailand. We have a big SEO conference here every year. And even though I don't always attend it, I do go to the bars after that are next to where the conference happens. Because I would say just the nature of business conferences, a lot of the deals do happen at the coffee shops in the morning and the bars after.

Gabriel Čavlović (16:51)

Thank

Gabriel Čavlović (17:01)

Okay. So the nugget is even if you can't hit the conference, go to meeting afterwards where people are. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Amazing. and one of the most interesting things about you, you've been traveling while building these businesses, speaking on conferences and doing all this stuff. Like how is that in practice? How does that work? Why do you do it? And yeah.

Michael Gardiner (17:07)

Yeah.

Michael Gardiner (17:24)

Sure, so I think the biggest distinction between what people think and what actually is, like the speed at which I travel. When I was younger, I used to travel quite fast, but like an average year for me looks like spending one to two months in the States with family, spending four to five months settled in Thailand.

Previously I owned a condo, I still own it, it's a rental now, now I have a house. So that means I'm coming back to the same internet, the same desk, the same chair. And then I also do some traveling, which might be, I like to go places for like one to two months, and if I do a shorter trip, it might be like three or four days as vacation. So that's how I've managed to make it sustainable, where I'm not like going somewhere new every single day.

And yeah, I've loved it. I left home for the first time when I was 18 and really since then I haven't spent that much time in the States, maybe since 2018, maybe a year total, maybe a bit less. And yeah, for me, it's the thing I enjoy the most. I love where I live in Chiang Mai, but I really enjoy going to different countries. I've been to about 60. I actually leave and...

four days, five days to the Philippines for the first time. yeah, it keeps me entertained for sure.

Gabriel Čavlović (18:42)

Wow, 60 countries, that's insane. You have to come to Croatia so we can meet up and spend some quality time.

Michael Gardiner (18:46)

Yeah, I haven't been. I've been close, but I've never been.

Gabriel Čavlović (18:50)

Yeah, it's amazing. Coastline, if you like that stuff, you have to check it out. I wanted to connect more to that. What does a typical day look like as a digital moment? Okay, when you are in Thailand or home, that's a bit different, but when you are actually traveling to some of these places, how does that look? How do you make it work with all these businesses?

Michael Gardiner (18:55)

Yes.

Michael Gardiner (19:13)

Yeah, I find that often the most practical answers are really exciting, and that's the case here. Like, if I'm going somewhere for a month, let's say, I'm going to do an activity for a couple hours in the mornings, and normally the time zone's ahead of the US, and then I work. Maybe I don't work on Fridays, I don't work on Saturdays, I don't work on Sundays, I just do things all day, but there's not like this...

really cool secret schedule. I go places for longer, that way I have less temptation to do things constantly. And that tends to work quite well. Now if I do go on a three day trip or a four day trip, I might work for a couple hours a day, but for the most part that's like a vacation.

Gabriel Čavlović (19:57)

that makes sense. Yeah, so if you go longer, then it's easier to manage these things you have to manage. Cool. Do you have a favorite place you work from?

Michael Gardiner (20:03)

Yeah, that's great.

Michael Gardiner (20:08)

Thailand, Thailand to live Thailand to visit Japan.

Gabriel Čavlović (20:13)

really, why? Why those two?

Michael Gardiner (20:15)

Thailand, visa situation is quite good. I like that you can own condos, food, safety. There's a big entrepreneur community here, but nature is very pretty.

mean, Thailand is just kind of an obvious one for a lot of people. It's a great place. I love to visit Japan. Japan is also kind of a basic answer. I wouldn't live in Japan, but I love to visit there. It's just such a unique culture. It's very separated from the rest of the world. The Japanese are very isolated, which is kind of cool. And there's other places I enjoy traveling, but won't want to work from. Like, I was in a country, was it this year or last year?

this year, this country this year that I really enjoyed called Timor-Leste, which is one of the least visited countries in the world. And that was really cool. Had a great time there, but couldn't work there.

Gabriel Čavlović (21:04)

I love this. Like, do you think like being on a move like this in these countries, like least, least popular country in the world, like, does that make you better in business, in life? Like, do you learn some skills that way? I would assume so, right?

Michael Gardiner (21:15)

Soft skills, yeah, for sure, for sure. I'm pretty good at getting along with people, staying out of trouble. know, pretty good street, developed street smarts, would say. Business-wise, yeah, maybe more or less. But yeah, I definitely, I mean, also, if I consider like the ages I was traveling, you know,

I definitely have matured on the road because there's a big gap between 18 and 25 just developmentally. It's hard to say how much of that was just natural evolution versus how much of was accelerated by being in different places on my own.

Gabriel Čavlović (21:53)

This is super cool. Yeah, you have super cool story. Yeah, even though you think it's planned, it's not. It's amazing. If you could give a piece of advice to someone who is just starting out a Legion agency today, like what would it be? You said it's so much noise. It's so much different than when you started. What are some practical tips you can give to this person?

Michael Gardiner (22:16)

So specific to strategy, the personal outreach, like finding personal connections between people you reach out to because there isn't a logical reason to work with you. But on a more broad, I hate word mindset, but it is mindset, like a mindset level. I would say the biggest thing that I see, not just new Legion agency owners, but agency owners, new and established new is they start the business and they do a little bit of outreach.

and then they spend a bunch of time doing other crap. They spend time obsessing over their one client or working on their website or reading books or developing SOPs or setting up automations or learning a skill. like, if you're not getting clients, it can only be one of two things. Thing one is you're not doing outreach or enough outreach.

thing number one, so a lack of volume. Thing number two is you're doing outreach and it's not working and you're not changing things. That's all it could be. It's either you aren't doing enough or you're doing enough but you're blind to the results and aren't split testing. And what I find for most people is they just don't do anything. They get this business and they just don't do anything. They have this business and they think they're a cool entrepreneur and they read their little business book and...

build out some stupid automation for when to get clients and they don't do any outreach, Like businesses, yeah, yeah. It's test, get feedback, iterate, test, get feedback, iterate. And yeah, so I say audit yourself. Make sure you're actually doing outreach. Like actually doing outreach, because, or content, or just any marketing. if you're not doing marketing, nothing's going to change.

Gabriel Čavlović (23:36)

and then stop.

Gabriel Čavlović (23:53)

Yeah, no one will know you're there. Do you have some kind of like numbers that like, hey, do this many daily, weekly, monthly, just for people listening, like how can they take a number and say, hey, after X amount of outreach, I should reevaluate my system and not quit too early or things like that.

Michael Gardiner (24:11)

Yeah, it depends on the platform. I'll give three answers to that. But the first thing, I'll give four answers. First answer is like how much time? Well.

If you're building your business full time, then you should be doing close to full time doing outreach. If you're building your business full time, then you should be doing close to part time doing outreach. So that's the broad answer. I'll rail it into Upwork, email, and mail, because those are the three platforms I do the most. Cold email, about 2,000 prospects. If you haven't gotten any leads or any good feedback, you need to change something. Direct mail, about 50 prospects. That's a good sample size. And Upwork, about 100 applications.

Gabriel Čavlović (24:26)

I love that.

Gabriel Čavlović (24:47)

Based on that, would you then say for someone starting out, is it better to start on these different channels rather than call the email, like Upwork, because they should do mathematically least or less?

Michael Gardiner (25:01)

It depends on the person. Direct mail is probably the most expensive one to start on, although it's not terribly expensive. You might spend over $1,000 on 50 prospects, depending on what you're doing. So I would say if you are from a Western country, Upwork is probably the

best place to start because it's the easiest to get clients and you probably don't have like a hardened niche and Upwork is great for like if you're niche agnostic. So I would say for most people Upwork is probably the best place to start.

Gabriel Čavlović (25:35)

Do you have any thoughts on AI? Like are you afraid of it? Do you guys use it internally? How has that dynamic played out?

Michael Gardiner (25:44)

Yeah, I definitely use it in my business. We've been able to automate quite a lot of things with it. I'm not super technical, so it's not something I'm hugely interested in. Part of the pivot to mail though is I don't think mail will be interfered with too much with AI. Also,

I also have been doing a lot more planning around some YouTube things I want to do. Reason being is I also think that out of every social media platform, video content is probably going be the least affected by AI. That'd be my assumption.

Gabriel Čavlović (26:20)

And why do you think is that like people are turning to genuine other people because everything right now is AI generated, LinkedIn is full. Yeah.

Michael Gardiner (26:27)

Yeah, I really... Yeah, LinkedIn posts and Twitter posts and even the comments, it's just like a bit of a shit show, it looks like. I found that like, with the introduction of like AI content, I consume like no business content, like none, not at all. honestly, I don't think I've listened to a podcast, read a book.

watch a video or write a social media post about business in like three months. I just think the quality has gone down a little bit. But you know, I'm sure that will change and I'll be consuming different content at some point. But yeah, video content seems, it's already like the hardest thing to do because most people don't want to be on camera. But.

Gabriel Čavlović (27:00)

Yeah, it is.

Gabriel Čavlović (27:15)

Especially long form, right? Like podcasts like this or longer video, 20-30 minutes. That's hard. That's tough. Yeah.

Michael Gardiner (27:22)

Yeah, I do agree. yeah, that's kind of part of my plans. But ultimately, if AIA overtakes everything, I don't really care because I have my investment properties and my investments and my safety net and I'm chilling. So I kind of passed my years of worrying.

Gabriel Čavlović (27:39)

That's lovely. Yeah, you'll be fine. Yeah. We are always like from developing state standpoint, right? We are always looking, hey, like every client, hey, are you afraid that AI will replace you? Like not yet. Like we're fine. Like AI is doing a lot of things wrong right now. It's doing some things right and you can use it. And if you're a developer and not using it, you're wrong, but yeah, it's not there yet.

Michael Gardiner (28:04)

40 % of population can't change their password without help, so I'm not too worried.

Gabriel Čavlović (28:08)

Yeah, exactly. I love that. Yeah. Okay, before we close this off, like I have like a rapid fire round where just whatever pops your on your mind for just say so What's the first thing you check when you wake up?

Michael Gardiner (28:23)

messages.

Gabriel Čavlović (28:24)

messages. Yeah, cool. What's kind of your superpower? What is your strong point?

Michael Gardiner (28:30)

meeting people.

Gabriel Čavlović (28:32)

What's one thing people get wrong about B2B outreach?

Michael Gardiner (28:39)

the amount of volume you need to do is a lot higher than most people anticipate.

Gabriel Čavlović (28:43)

love that. And one last thing, like what's one thing that you're still figuring out or don't know how to do?

Michael Gardiner (28:57)

Hiring is hard. Hiring is something that I still feel like, I have some amazing employees, but I don't have the world's best system for getting hires on demand. I think a lot of agencies would agree that good hires are difficult. So systemization of getting good hires.

Gabriel Čavlović (29:15)

Yeah, I would agree on that as well. Especially us on Hire a Dev, before on my Alicta, an agency, it's really... One developer or one employee can change your whole business. If it's an A player that they can do things themselves, you can rely on them, it's so good. And then if you hire someone a bit worse, it's just more headaches for you, it's tougher, it's harder.

Michael Gardiner (29:40)

Sure.

Gabriel Čavlović (29:42)

Yeah, think systems need to be in place for that, for sure. Yeah, that would be all, Michael, for today. Thank you very much for joining me. Where can people connect with you, learn more about what you guys do at Done4U meetings, and maybe share some of your socials.

Michael Gardiner (29:45)

Yeah, I would agree.

Michael Gardiner (29:58)

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on. everything that I do is linked to my YouTube. My YouTube is in my name, Michael Gardner. Maybe you have a link below. So if you want to find my agency or coaching or any other social media channel, it all starts with my YouTube. You can go there and find it in the description.

Gabriel Čavlović (30:14)

Thank you, amazing. I'll link your channel down below and yeah, thanks for this. Bye.

Michael Gardiner (30:19)

Yeah, absolutely. It was fun.